So from people 9,000 years ago having "Caucasoid" features to "Norse" people being driven off by Indians 2,000 years ago? What the hell does all that mean?

It means nothing. So what? So some people who have features similar to Japan's Ainu population or polynesian people may have crossed the Bering Strait, too? What difference does that make? How does that change genocide? How does it change that the United States is a "nation" of immigrants?

What the hell are you talking about?

No one has said that Native culture was idyllic, merely that a nation of immigrants, who stole the land through brutal genocide (see images.indymedia.org/imc/washingtondc/media/application/2/october12genocidedestructionandimperialismslideshow.pdf ) for my own teach-in on the matter, has a lot of nerve using its conquered borders to keep people out.

Also, you are very mistaken about the legality of the land grab. Even if all the land acquired by treaties, congressional resolutions, and executive orders were combined, a huge area of what is now the United States is not covered under any of those acts. When you consider that the treaties themselves were tools of leverage (often much like bankruptcy courts, often much like the NAFTAs and CAFTAs of the day), when things like the Dawes Act were used to futher subdivide Indian land, often in direct violation of treaty provisions (and the US has claimed the right to abrogate any treaty it sees fit to abrogate), the hypocrisy is more outrageous.

But, even if we put that all aside, how dare you set legal immigrants against illegal immigrants against homeless people. All these groups suffer the SAME class oppression, and they should not be at war with each other. You make your 10 year wait sound like some kind of badge of honor; it was oppression just as it is oppression to tell people they need to starve to death before they can work a job, before they can try and make something to feed themselves.

If you want to fight against NAFTA and CAFTA like you say you do, you wouldn't engage in tactics intended to destroy solidarity against the powerful forces that work to beat down American workers, legal immigrants, illegal immigrants, the working poor, the homeless, people of color, gay and lesbians, the disabled, women, and anyone who dares to stand with these and all the other people on the losing side of today's power equation.

You may be an immigrant, but you are working against immigrants and people of color and the poor and workers everywhere.

Jim Macdonald

What, exactly, "beats down" these so called oppressed groups you mention? Does the government truly do so, or is it possible that their own entitlement mentality is the root of the problem? I know that there are those who are genuinely unable to fend for themselves. Children, the elderly, and mentally and physically handicapped people need our help, and I am happy to give to them. On that same token, I knw plenty of handicapped and old people who get pissed off if someone tries to give them anything. I can name several companies who employ the handicapped and pay them well, so they might have a chance to fend for themselves and gain some sense of accomplishment. Skilcraft Corp. of TX and Eggleston Services in VA come to mind.

The old "rough childhood" or "disadvantaged family" routine is older than Methuselah, and I am sick of hearing it. There are plenty of people who come from disadvantaged families, myself included, who are now successful because we applied ourselves, held ourselves to a high standard, and worked hard. If you think I got where I am today because I am white, or because I am lucky, or because there is some grand conspiracy, you have your head crammed in your ass.

Opportunities exist for ALL Americans, be they native born or naturalized, and this is the argument's true core: some people feel that the American way of life should be available to people who are not citizens and have never made a contribution. Some people have the entitlement mentality, "the world owes me something just because I am here" bit, and they never want to give anything back or make any contributions to the nation or to society. They would rather sit around and bitch about how much their life sucks and how they want the government to do more for them and how they hate those who are "more fortunate." I can tell you now, luck has nothing to do with it. I bust my ass every day for the life I maintain, and nothing, NOTHING, gives anyone the right to come along and take what's mine to give it to someone else. I have no problem making donations to charities or handing a couple of bucks to a guy on the street (I have been known to grab them up and take them to BK or Subway on numerous occassions), but there is a difference between true generosity and the government simply taking my money and giving it to someone else.

I know I got a bit off topic there, but the point is that if someone wants to reap the benefits of living in America, should they not be expected and required to abide by American laws and pay American taxes and learn the American language while they are here?

"What, exactly, "beats down" these so called oppressed groups you mention? Does the government truly do so..."

First off, Mexico is paying interest on a gigantic loan from the IMF. I can't find the most up to date number, but off the top of my head, the debt is a couple hundred BILLION dollars in debt. (Someone please correct this.)

This means no President of Mexico can afford to pay for ANY social service programs for poor people in Mexico.

Ask yourself where the interest on that debt is going, and how "legal" Americans are able to sustain their enormously wasteful lifestyle, including sitting on their computers getting fat.

If you don't ask yourself where all the wealth came from, then you really just want to pretend that all your benefits came from paying "taxes."

Second of all, Mexico is stuck with a handful of large landowners who wish they were the Spanish conquistators, and who refuse to give up any land to the peasants.

Third of all, NAFTA has wiped out the middle class of Mexico, as proven by all kinds of economists, left and right, and a President who thinks that selling the National oil company of Pemex, and making a deal for another "braceros" program in the US, is the way to solve his economic problems.

I could go on, but I have to go to work - unlike others who seem to be parked on this thread.

JIM YOU ARE AN IDIOT....

I will glady be called an idiot if it means you have nothing better to say about my arguments. What keeps me up at night aren't what people like you think about me but rather substantive and interesting critiques challenging what I believe to be right.

Have a good day. *smile*

What this article fails to mention are the many ruins, towers, tombs and artifacts which had been found which predate these skeletons with Norse symbols and carvings of Norse gods and strictly Norse styled jewelry, that is what makes me believe these were not abnormal Asians. You act like I am dismissing the fact that Indians were oppressed, I am not. What happened was wrong, but you have to consider the proof that indians were not the only people here and are not a non-violent people themselves. You keep claiming the Marxist notion that there are no borders yet you claim the land belongs to a people. So in all the thousands of years of human evolution and conquest the Indians are the only people who were oppressed? You also fail to note the fact that I have mentioned several times that I am not against LEGAL Immigration. I also know this is a land of immigrants, however a majority of them swore allegiance to the USA, I myself went into the armed forces in the 1980's. A majority of Illegals refuse to become American and want to establish a little Mexico. Look at the ramifications that the US Civil War had, when these rebels broke away from the union. Tell me is splitting a country apart worth it? You think people owe no loyalty to this nation, well this nation held open arms to my family and your families for that matter. Just because I am NOT a person of color does not mean I should have no say in what is happening here. You seem to think people of color as you call them are the only people who have been oppressed and I know you will never stop this senseless hate of white Americans like myself or is it the fact that I am a Jew that stirs your hate. This is how WWII came into play and how Hitler murdered 7 million Jews and 7 million Christians. Not to mention the slaughter before hand and after by Stalin. So go on with all your hate, murder an entire people who did nothing to an Indian. How can you punish people for an injustice they never committed? You children never will learn the true meaning of freedom until you yourselves have been put into camps like my parents, have numbers tattooed on their arms. Men women and children led into gas chambers and dumped like waste. Then to have to go back into a worse lifestyle under communist rule, yes I said WORSE. Nobody is working against Legal immigrants, working poor, homeless folks and where does this homosexual issue come from, they were not even mentioned. My point is I would be glad to have any person as my friend if they became loyal Americans, if you can't do that why do you think American tax payers should give them a dime? You don't think that I care that these wolves are exploiting these people, wrong! I care alot, that's why I myself am against anyone who hires these people, I have seen the filth that they live in, I have talked to them, none have a desire to be American or make a better life or even learn English, they are encouraged to come here by the horrible government in Mexico who oppresses them more then anyone and become parasites to disrupt the financial system. You can cry and scream all you want, but you know nothing about being an immigrant. What we did when we got to America was to join groups to help end oppression in Poland, perhaps your group needs to help end the Fox corruption so these people can make a better live in Mexico? Stop bashing Americans and start setting a standard, respectability among immigrants gets everywhere, drugs and crime and racial hate and gangs are the downfall of any people. Why don't you work against that if you care so much. But that would be a solution and not a bunch of stupid children waving signs and shouting hate. Be proactive not reactive. Also these shouts about Eastern Europeans are extremely insensitive and very childish. I love this nation and I know that many people from my area of the world come here and commit crime, I would advocate them being sent out of the nation myself. You have to know that the bad apples do not spoil the barrel with us, whereas with MS-13 the bad apples are spoiling the rest. Poles also come here knowing they are coming into the American nation, not a Polish state. We want to be Americans. When an illegal immigrant comes here he give good people a bad name, he has already broken many laws, does not speak the language, often is used by cartels to mule drugs and then is used again by slave driving employer up here. What is the use? Fight for human being by helping the minutmen report these horrible people who use these poor Mexican people. They are nothing but trash to them. They are also taking jobs that normally a lower class American would have to do. By encoraging this you are only adding gas to the fire you want to put out, so don't listen and keep going in circles. I talked to the leader of the minutemen in this area the other day to ask him what they do when they find a nazi or KKK or a biggot in the group, he told me they always end up showing their true colors and they are kicked out, he said that kind of thing does not belong with what they do. He in fact is married to a legal mexican immigrant. She also protests with them. He told me he hates CAFTA and other programs like it, and how they are trying to end expoltation. They are also against illegal immigration from China and Europe and any coutry for that matter.

I myself have said nothing hateful about anyone, yet people on this forum attack my race and nationality, is that not biggotted? Are you not against that with all the complaining you do about the minutemen?

Am am perfectly open to a civil conversation perhaps we can learn from eachother, but first you have to admit that nobody knows everything that happens and every people have at one time been oppressed.

here's a clip from your proof:

"In other words, the scientists say it is possible that it is only a coincidence that the ancient skeletons have features that resemble those of Europeans. The long heads and angular faces may have arisen independently in a strictly Asian population."

i will give you that it was an interesting article, but to stretch it to your conclusions was pretty ridiculous and a bit of wishful thinking on your part.

and your "proof" states the early maybe caucasoid skeleton was dated at 9600 years ago and they have no idea where it came from. it could have come from asia. Asians (the descendents of Native Americans) migrated here 15-20,000 years ago AT LEAST.

and, i don't recall seeing any Minutemen in Miami protesting the FTAA.

and, yes, you do need a history lesson, because this land was stolen from the natives through outright conquest, murder, lies and broken treaties. even a mainstream history book fesses up to a lot of that these days.

you can defend the Minutemen till the cows come home. to me, they will be reactionary racists in the worst traditions of the Klan, Conservative Citizen's Councils, Nativist Party (white political party active against another wave of immigration in the 1800's - probably when many of the Minutemen's members ancestors came over).